Talk:Citations: Difference between revisions

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'''Citation needed'''

'''Citation needed'''<ref>This wiki doesn't even have the {{Citation needed}} template! One more example of the need for Global templates</ref>

What methods do people use to turn their MediaWiki instances into actual useful software?

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It's just that I want to be able to quickly enter a Citation in "Chicago Style" (''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicago_Manual_of_Style The Chicago Manual of Style]'') or ''the'' general 80% use-case citation style by filling out a dialog box or template but without needing to brush up on things I might have learned while writing papers in college.

It's great that the open source community - both developers and editors - has been hacking away at Citations as a feature for years (e.g. [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2021/Results/Citations 2021 Wishlist Survey results for Citations] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Results/Citations 2022] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2023/Results/Citations 2023])~~, but~~ in a 3rd-party context, I don't want to have to know or understand any of that in order to accomplish the simple task at hand: creating a citation/footnote in a standard format.

It's great that the open source community - both developers and editors - has been hacking away at Citations as a feature for years (e.g. [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2021/Results/Citations 2021 Wishlist Survey results for Citations] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Results/Citations 2022] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2023/Results/Citations 2023] and an entire conference series called "WikiCite" eg. WikiCite 2020 presentation "[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCJbbvjXtkg The frontend of WikiCite]" {{#ev:youtube|gCJbbvjXtkg|start=6:18}}) which also has an [https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/The_frontend_of_WikiCite extensive etherpad].

There has also been a years-long initiative to create "'''Global templates'''"

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Taxonomy

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Taxonomy#Citations

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Alternative_solutions

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Transition

But in a 3rd-party context, I don't want to have to know or understand any of that in order to accomplish the simple task at hand: creating a citation/footnote in a standard format.

And, from a competitive landscape perspective, if Drupal, WordPress, and writers tools like Scribbr have Citation generation "built-in"<ref>Check how these other projects use CSL and/or perhaps use a library for CSL like Citation.js? https://citationstyles.org/</ref> then why doesn't MediaWiki?

{{ambox|

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It looks like you need to create your own templates - the original problem!

To quote from [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMDE_Technical_Wishes/extending_references WMDE Technical Wishes/extending references]:

Preferences aside, the main reason for pro was that the proposed solution is an integrated functionality, not based on templates. These issues with templates were mentioned:

* Templates are hard to learn for new editors.

* Templates increase server load.

* Templates aren’t machine-readable, which makes processing for bots harder.

* Not all wikis use templates. An integrated solution would work in all wikis, independent of which templates they use.

</blockquote>

And then, you [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Citation_tool install the Visual Editor citation tool]}}

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It has bothered me for a long time that you can't re-use templates from WMF due to "dependency hell" (using that term loosely here to describe the cascading inclusion of dozens of templates and modules). I imported dozens of templates [https://wiki.freephile.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=&namespace=828 and modules] in 2017 in an attempt to get basic "citation" and "Infobox" templates. This is still the technique for implementing the Citation Tool

;Citation Style 1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_Style_1

: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_Style_1

== My Wiki is Not Wikipedia ==

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== Solution ==

A basic set of templates and possibly Lua code, system messages and Project namespace content bundled into a Page Exchange bundle.

Without an easy '''existing''' solution, users will simply not adopt the software, or not reference information that should be referenced. You could ''maybe'' resort to third-party tools to help you create parenthetical referfences (e.g. [https://www.scribbr.com/citing-sources/citation-styles/ Scribbr]), but that is a failure from the MediaWiki project perspective if users need to use other tools for basic functionality.

'''One idea'''

We can develop a basic set of templates and possibly Lua code, system messages and Project namespace content bundled into a Page Exchange bundle.

== See Also ==

* [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/4256/ Workboard for a "Cite Extends"] or so-called "book referencing" from German Wikipedia community

* https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Technische_W%C3%BCnsche/Topw%C3%BCnsche/Erweiterung_der_Einzelnachweise

* https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/4256/

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-'''Citation needed'''
+'''Citation needed'''<ref>This wiki doesn't even have the {{Citation needed}} template! One more example of the need for Global templates</ref>
 What methods do people use to turn their MediaWiki instances into actual useful software?
@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 It's just that I want to be able to quickly enter a Citation in "Chicago Style" (''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicago_Manual_of_Style The Chicago Manual of Style]'') or ''the'' general 80% use-case citation style by filling out a dialog box or template but without needing to brush up on things I might have learned while writing papers in college.
-It's great that the open source community - both developers and editors - has been hacking away at Citations as a feature for years (e.g. [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2021/Results/Citations 2021 Wishlist Survey results for Citations] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Results/Citations 2022] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2023/Results/Citations 2023]), but in a 3rd-party context, I don't want to have to know or understand any of that in order to accomplish the simple task at hand: creating a citation/footnote in a standard format.
+It's great that the open source community - both developers and editors - has been hacking away at Citations as a feature for years (e.g. [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2021/Results/Citations 2021 Wishlist Survey results for Citations] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Results/Citations 2022] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2023/Results/Citations 2023] and an entire conference series called "WikiCite" eg. WikiCite 2020 presentation "[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCJbbvjXtkg The frontend of WikiCite]" {{#ev:youtube|gCJbbvjXtkg|start=6:18}}) which also has an [https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/The_frontend_of_WikiCite extensive etherpad].
+There has also been a years-long initiative to create "'''Global templates'''"
+* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates
+* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Taxonomy
+* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Taxonomy#Citations
+* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Alternative_solutions
+* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Global_templates/Transition
+But in a 3rd-party context, I don't want to have to know or understand any of that in order to accomplish the simple task at hand: creating a citation/footnote in a standard format.
+And, from a competitive landscape perspective, if Drupal, WordPress, and writers tools like Scribbr have Citation generation "built-in"<ref>Check how these other projects use CSL and/or perhaps use a library for CSL like Citation.js? https://citationstyles.org/</ref> then why doesn't MediaWiki?
 {{ambox|
@@ Line 17: / Line 28: @@
 It looks like you need to create your own templates - the original problem!
+To quote from [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMDE_Technical_Wishes/extending_references WMDE Technical Wishes/extending references]:
+<blockquote>
+Preferences aside, the main reason for pro was that the proposed solution is an integrated functionality, not based on templates. These issues with templates were mentioned:
+    * Templates are hard to learn for new editors.
+    * Templates increase server load.
+    * Templates aren’t machine-readable, which makes processing for bots harder.
+    * Not all wikis use templates. An integrated solution would work in all wikis, independent of which templates they use.
+</blockquote>
 And then, you [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Citation_tool install the Visual Editor citation tool]}}
@@ Line 22: / Line 43: @@
 It has bothered me for a long time that you can't re-use templates from WMF due to "dependency hell" (using that term loosely here to describe the cascading inclusion of dozens of templates and modules). I imported dozens of templates [https://wiki.freephile.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=&namespace=828 and modules] in 2017 in an attempt to get basic "citation" and "Infobox" templates. This is still the technique for implementing the Citation Tool
+;Citation Style 1:
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_Style_1
+: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_Style_1
 == My Wiki is Not Wikipedia ==
@@ Line 31: / Line 52: @@
 == Solution ==
-A basic set of templates and possibly Lua code, system messages and Project namespace content bundled into a Page Exchange bundle.
+Without an easy '''existing''' solution, users will simply not adopt the software, or not reference information that should be referenced. You could ''maybe'' resort to third-party tools to help you create parenthetical referfences (e.g. [https://www.scribbr.com/citing-sources/citation-styles/ Scribbr]), but that is a failure from the MediaWiki project perspective if users need to use other tools for basic functionality.
+'''One idea'''
+We can develop a basic set of templates and possibly Lua code, system messages and Project namespace content bundled into a Page Exchange bundle.
+== See Also ==
+* [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/4256/ Workboard for a "Cite Extends"] or so-called "book referencing" from German Wikipedia community
+* https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Technische_W%C3%BCnsche/Topw%C3%BCnsche/Erweiterung_der_Einzelnachweise
+* https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/4256/
+{{reflist}}